“The rebellion has captured and killed three governors so far...”
Sentaro Klaman listens to the report, sitting at a round table with the rest of the administrators.
“The people refuse to pay the increased taxes, and there are reports of several men in the army deserting because of the lack of pay...”
More bad news from the finance administrator. They haven’t received any Runalymo goods yet, and it will be another month before they expect them to arrive.
“Reports of bandits in the empire are on the rise in almost every region...”
Perhaps he went about this all wrong. Was it his actions that finally tipped the Empire over the cliff? The fool of an emperor was making a lot of bad decisions, but at least the empire maintained some semblance of stability.
“Slaves are revolting and joining the rebellion…”
The longer this meeting goes on, the worse the situation seems. By removing the corrupt governors, Klaman somehow removed a cornerstone supporting the Empire. Criminal organizations that had deals with those governors then ran unchecked. In response, he removed those organizations, too, but that didn’t solve the issue; instead, there was an increase in petty crime and murders, and the rebellion was strengthened. Every action he took just made things worse.
Klaman was no ruler, this much was obvious, but he didn’t know he would make things this bad. He only saw one problem, governors dealing with criminals. He didn’t consider that there were good effects to those deals. Sure the primary reason was greed, but that greed was precedented on the stability of the empire, a necessary evil since corrupt governors needed to put some effort into keeping the citizens content.
The criminal organizations would help the governor by self-regulating and keeping petty thugs under control, but he upset that delicate balance.
The people need someone to rally behind, a more competent ruler. The steward is doing his best but has to deal with the fallout of his actions.
I’ve been so focused on finding the right ruler that I’ve forgotten the most important thing, a competent ruler. He still has no doubt that Alysara would eventually make for a great empress, but she is still young. Still, her [Acting] skill will help her inexperience.
“Is there any good news?” Klaman asks, after the endless reports of bad news.
“Unfortunately, there is not,” The steward says after taking measured glances at the other administrators.
Klaman sighs. “Do what you think is best for the Empire,” he says before teleporting to the Hall of Memorial.
He finds the statue of his dear old friend and sits against the wall next to it.
“Everything is going wrong. The Empire is falling apart, your bloodline is rotting, and it’s all my fault. I have failed you. I did what I thought was best, but I ended up making everything worse. I should have been more proactive, should have mentored your descendants better, should have prioritized talent when your bloodline failed.” He lets out a long and heavy sigh.
“I fear it may be too late. I wanted it all. I wanted to preserve your true royal lineage; I wanted your line to rule forever. I suppose your daughter, Lanya, is the only one you should be proud of. You never cared she didn’t share the same royal trait as you; I don’t know why I did.”
Perhaps it was never meant to be. The true Lunaleyan heritage was never about this land; it was about the land they came from, the land the Runalymo are from. In a twist of fate, it was never Lunaleyan in the first place; it was always a Runalymo trait, that’s why there were several of them that had royal blue hair. If that’s the case, then what can he call true Lunaleyan?
Regardless Alysara is powerful, talented, and has great potential to be the best empress this land has yet to see, and that’s what the empire needs right now. But for his friend’s descendants? He was born in this land, raised in it, fought for it, and sought to unite it. It’s time his bloodline becomes what it should have always been, Lunaleyan.
Suddenly several notifications start flowing in, notification of a dragon slaying something he can’t understand. Other than the oddity, he pays just as much attention to it as any other message of monsters slaying monsters until another shows up.
Ting! The Saintess of Mana and Magic, Alysara, the Runalymo, has freed the Saintess of the Runalymo, Kayafe, the Runalymo, and completed the Mana Arc!
Saintess of Mana and Magic? She has already received a title?! And who is Kayafe? What is the Mana Arc? In any case, the Runalymo has another powerful person; could she be the one Alysara wanted to talk with?
What does this mean? Now that he thinks about it, Kayafe is similar to the first empress’s name, are they related? Or…
It slowly dawns on him as he thinks how the language might have drifted over the millennia.
Is Kayafe the First Empress?!
It would make sense now that Alysara might want to consult her, but she also freed her. Why was Kayafe imprisoned? Speculating won’t take him anywhere; it would be best to ask Alysara herself.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Ting! The Saintess of Mana and Magic, Alysara, the Runalymo, has discovered how to cleanse cursed Skills!
“She was telling the truth…” Lorana Lanya mutters, setting down her paperwork.
This must mean that she managed to cleanse her cursed skill, something not even her, the Grand Healer of Helikan, has been able to do. Not even Healer can do something like that, and it can revive the recent dead!
“Damn you, Klaman!” If it wasn’t for his meddling, she could have that knowledge already! Now it’s going to cost her even more to get that knowledge. What can she trade for it? Alysara doesn’t need healing anymore now that her curse is cured.
“I know that look; you want to know how she did it” A familiar voice speaks behind her.
“You know,” Lanya turns to Klaman, anger in her eyes. “She actually offered it to me for payment for her healing, but I couldn’t accept it because of that favor.”
“Was it confirmed at that time?” Klaman asks. “She might have known, but it was just her word, right? Would you really have accepted that as payment?”
Lanya sighs, breathing out her anger. He’s right, Alysara had admitted it was unconfirmed, and she would have probably asked for another form of payment, like one of her magical items.
“She may have been able to convince me,” Lanya replies, unwilling to give Klaman any satisfaction. “What are you here for anyway?”
“You don’t have anything worth trading for it, right? Let me help you I—”
“No!” Lanya interrupts him. “I am not going to be indebted to you again! I can pay for it myself.”
“Lanya,” Klaman sighs, adopting a softer tone. “I need your help.”
Klaman sits on the window sill and buries his face in his hands. Lanya tries to speak but is unable to say anything. Klaman has never shown vulnerability.
“Everything I do to fix the Empire has only made it burn down faster. The steward is capable but can’t keep up with my mistakes. We need aid, financial support, and good leadership. I’m betting on Alysara to make things right. She’s talented but young; she’ll need your wisdom if she agrees to lead the Empire. But before that happens, there needs to be an Empire. I’m not trying to gain favors; I’m asking for one.”
“Klaman.” Lanya finally finds her voice. “I will help you, but you must realize that the empire you swore to protect died a long time ago.”
“What do you mean?” Klaman looks up to meet her eyes.
“The empire isn't the same from four hundred years ago, Klaman, it shares the same name and land, but those don’t make a country. Its culture, government, laws, and even language have drifted; it doesn’t even look the same as it did when my father ruled. It’s time you let it go, remember it for what it was, but accept that, like a flower, it wilted. That is what countries are, flowers. They live, they prosper, then they wilt and die; they are not like gemstones that remain forever.”
“This is all I have, Lanya! I can’t let it go.” Klaman says, almost begging.
“Then maybe it’s time to start investing in something other than the Empire. Regardless I’ll give you the help you need, but what do you plan on giving Alysara for the knowledge on how to cure cursed skills? You don’t have much worth giving, and you’ve already promised some leviathan materials for trade with the Runalymo.”
“And she’s getting some from Vocana too,” Klaman adds. “I don’t think she’ll be as interested in our magic items, and we can’t really afford to trade them away. Besides, she’d probably be more interested in materials.”
“But any materials you can offer her she is already getting or aren’t as good,” Layana says, voicing the problem.
“Yes, just like you, we don’t have the means to get that knowledge… well, except one,” Klaman pauses.
“The meteorite?” Lanya asks.
During his conquests, her father found a meteorite with the timeless tier. It will keep regenerating if broken, but the broken pieces are only ancient tier, losing their regenerative property.
“Yes. It’s exalted and timeless tier, a renewable resource of exalted ore, or she can reshape it into a more powerful weapon. The empire has been using it to make armor and weapons for the Royal Knights, but with the Runalymo, they can make weapons and armor or at least provide better enchantments. They aren’t exclusive in enchanting services.”
“I see. The world is changing, and we must direct that change; that is what it means to be a ruler, Klaman. We cannot stop change from happening; we can only guide it. Remember the past, plan for the future, and live in the present; that is what you need to do. Stop living in the past.”
Klaman remains silent for several minutes before vanishing from the room without a word. Had her words reached him? She hopes so.
“Well, I guess I have a lot more work to do now,” Lanya complains before returning to her paperwork.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Potential Klaman redemption arc
Potential? I think we're witnessing it right now. The gears of the redemption arc are already turning.
@Jemini redemption arc maybe, but I still have a hard time liking him as a character, he just dosen't seem that smart, his fixation on his friends kingdom when he sucks at being king and doesn't even realize the kingdom he is trying to help isn't the same as it used to be when his friend was alive, and his fixation on Alysara being the best candidate for the new leader of the kingdom, I don't think Alysara will do bad but just because she is good at magic dosen't mean she will be a good king or leader there entire different skill sets.
@seekingsatisfaction at least he recognises that it's his fault things are going downhill... some would insist it were the fault of their minions.
@seekingsatisfaction He has a lot to work on, but that's what makes a redemption arc worth it. It's not an interesting redemption if the former bad-guy was never really bad to begin with, and same goes to if they were too bad to forgive. Klaman has a persona such that he was genuinely trying to do good, but was just VERY far off on his implementation due to being a bit inept.
For that kind of personality, I think recognizing you are wrong and seeking help is so large a step that he's around 3/4 to his redemption just from that single act (with him having been 1/4 to his redemption when he caved on Aly having a political marriage.)
As for his obsession with Aly being the candidate for the throne, there are several political complications on that one that one could dig into quite a ways. Suffice it to say though, Lanya would have been a viable candidate right after her father's death, but it's complicated quite a bit now by the dual facts of her now ruling her own nation and the 400 years that have passed since then. Taking those 2 points into consideration, Aly actually would be a superior candidate to Lanya from a purely political perspective on this one. (Lanya could still become the ruler, but it would require a lot more effort than it would to make Aly the ruler.)
If you want more of a perspective on political considerations on these things, I suggest reading parts 3 and 4 of Ascendance of a Bookworm. (Parts 1 and 2 are the ones that have been adapted to anime, season 1 covering the entirety of part 1 and seasons 2 and 3 dividing up part 2 between them. Parts 3 and 4 which are still only in novel form are the ones where it starts getting deep into political stuff. Especially part 4. You read part 4 of Bookworm and you get a very good understanding of the kinds of complicated things you have to consider in terms of succession rights in a hereditary monarchy system.)
EDIT: To give a brief overview, about 60% of the concerns are related to what nobles within the country would think, 30% of the concerns have to do with what nobles outside the country would think, and 10% of the concerns are related to the actual qualifications of the individual. Those first two criteria can also be swayed by qualifications of the individual, but they would be far more concerned with various aspects of legitimacy claims such as hereditary line, some other claim to legitimacy that can substitute for the hereditary line (such as that hair color thing) and a HUGE part of it is related to other political attachments. In the case of comparing Aly to Lanya, Lanya's the leader of a neighboring nation, so putting her on the throne would be seen as the healer nation taking them over. Aly's an important individual from a foreign power that is a valuable trade ally. Her taking the throne would be seen in a similar light to a political marriage, even if no marriage happens. They would still be their own country, just with a ruler of foreign origins. Thus, the path is a great deal easier for Aly to get the throne than Lanya.
@Jemini All that said, the mere act of having Lanya step up to help with the transition period is effectively an act of breaking the nation's spirit and softening it up. It would destroy all the national pride any local nobles might have, and bringing in Aly after that would only break it further. It would make them rebel less than Lanya taking the throne, but to the local nobles it would be like choosing between being swallowed whole by a dragon or getting saved from said dragon by sacrificing your dominant arm and both your legs.
From the perspective of Aly's potential future rule, it makes things significantly easier for her. From the perspective of the local nobles though, they're going to be significantly less happy than they would be if she just took the throne outright without this interim ruler business, but most of the reason they'd have been happier about it that way is because they'd still have more power to assert themselves if they skipped this Lanya's aid phase of the process. And they would have DEFINITELY asserted themselves and caused trouble.
I don't remember him doing something that he'll need redemption after. I mean as assassin he sure did his things, but those things (even kidnapping those kid" is not above what average ruler classes of that island do.
Even with MC he was "Wanna be Empress? It what every sane girl in aristocratic society dreams of. All you need is marry that guy, it's how aristocratic societies work. Not wanna even consider marrying somebody you haven't even seen ? Eh, well, just become Empress without any conditions"
@Luis uh... Kidnapping a child, starting a war between two countries to act as a distraction, spying on just about everyone, I think he briefly plotting to kidnap Aly and make her birth an heir, extorting Layana, extorting Aly to get her to the meeting, trying to trick her into what he thinks is an unwinnable game...
This might be normal behaviour for a shady ruler type but that doesn't make it acceptable. Especially if he wants to work with Aly, we're pretty protective of our girl.
I don't think he needs redemption (Can you eat redemption ?). He just needs to learn how to do his job properly. If he needs to do evil to save his empire, then he should do it in a smart way instead of the impulsive way he used to do it before.
@kaithar Kidnapping a child and starting a war was just the political game, and the best move to save the country. From a view of the dirty game of politics, I think he gets a pass on that one. About the only issue with that entire sequence is that he'd seriously considered assassinating said child's mother before going the kidnapping route, and that's only a hair more egregious.
Considering how much of a belligerant Forron was being at the time, he definitely gets a pass on manipulating the direction the war would turn first.
Anyway, he never considered kidnapping Aly and making her a broodmare. He wanted her for her talents and abilities from the beginning, which means he was always intending to get her consent. It's just that the tension and mood of the story at the time was geared to make the reader assume otherwise.
@Jemini I'm not sure I agree with Alysara being a superior candidate from a political perspective, she is technically from an ancestor race to the Lunaleyan and they have both grown in different directions, their culture is completely different and biology is different enough that she dosen't really represent the Lunaleyan at all, she looks the part and has impressive achievements but if the empire as a whole learns about her and where she comes from it would be easy for others to question why a completely foreign person is coming to rule their empire .
@seekingsatisfaction As I said. It's a choice between the ruler of a local nation Vs. a non-ruler VIP of a valuable trade partner. It's the fact that Lanya is an active ruler and Aly is not that makes Aly the superior candidate. That's the main reason.
Being taken over by the ruler of another country will absolutely be perceived as the empire getting absorbed by the healer nation. And it won't just be a perception, it will be a reality. That's a tough pill to swallow. Comparing that to a foreign VIP, the latter is definitely preferable due to the fact it will let them keep their independent sovereignty.
Aly, as a valuable trade partner, would also bring a lot of power to the empire because other local nations will start wanting to communicate with her for the sake of facilitating trade with the Runalymo as well. That will bring all kinds of power to the Empire.
So, yes. Aly is a vastly superior candidate due to what she symbolizes. Her rulership abilities may be lacking by comparison, but the things she symbolizes are all superior to Lanya in every conceivable way. And, while a monarch does need skills to back them up, their ability to function as a symbol is actually far more important than their abilities. There is a limit to that statement, they do need a certain minimum of skill, but so long as they pass that minimum threshold the political system will not care about their skills in rulership beyond that. They just need to be effective as a symbol.
@Jemini Alysara dosen't need to be empress to be a good trade partner, her being empress might bring a lot of benefit in that regard but she can still be traded with otherwise,
Lanya and Alysara are just the two Klaman has considered because one is related to his dead friend and one is what he thinks is the best candidate, Alysara might standout because of her achievements but that dosen't mean there is no other options, while none of the Lunaleyan's have Alysara's achievements in magic I find it hard to believe that there are none that have there own qualities and achievements that make them standout maybe not as much as Alysara, Alysara would make a good symbol, her appearance, beauty bond, and announcements by the system would almost guarantee that.
@seekingsatisfaction It's not about her being a good trade partner. Right now, she's dealing with all nations equally. However, if she's empress, then she's literally living in 1 of the nations. This means all the other nations on the continent will start dealing with the Empire favorably just because Aly's the Empress.
Her being Empress will bring power to the Empire in a political sense, not an economic sense. That's the difference.
@Jemini did you read what I said? This bit:
This might be normal behaviour for a shady ruler type but that doesn't make it acceptable. Especially if he wants to work with Aly, we're pretty protective of our girl.
Dirty politics is dirty. Also, where's the morality in manipulating Forron to attack an uninvolved third party?
Right... The royal bloodline must continue, so our priority will be to find a suitable... partner, someone who is as close as possible to the true Lunaleyan lineage.
“I am looking for a suitable woman who can maybe revitalize your bloodline, but I fear I may have made the criteria too harsh.
She may be a few years too young, but she's the perfect candidate to continue the Emperor's bloodline, his old friend's bloodline.
He doesn’t want to simply kidnap her, that won’t be a good idea. He needs to build relations with these new people. He needs Alysara to willingly secure the Emperor's bloodline, but… does it have to be her?
Are you suggesting he has some magical way to "continue the bloodline" that doesn't involve getting Aly to have kids? I'll allow he's no longer considering kidnapping her but he's definitely trying to force her to come to him. He didn't show much interest in the candidates being willing to be Empress, Aly's getting a softer touch because she can actually escape.
@kaithar Errr... it sounds like maybe you should re-read a few chapters, because both of your points here are factually incorrect in terms of what's been presented in the story thus far.
1st, Vocana was not an uninvolved 3rd party. They were actually Forron's most likely target, all Kalman did was tilt the scales from it being an 80% chance of Vocana and Forron going to war to 100%. Also, Vocana was already gearing up because they were aware of the belligerant activities of Forron. And, for a 3rd point, Klaman did not manipulate Forron, he manipulated Vocana.
About all he did was deny the possibility of Vocana getting the chance to attack Forron from behind if, on the off-chance, Forron decided to attack a weaker target first. Vocana, also having Leviathan materials, would have been the most dangerous opponent for Forron. This makes for the difficult military decision of attacking the biggest threat first or going for a soft target and leaving their back open. Considering his own nation was one of the likely softer targets, his actions are the moral equivalent of the weak wimpy kid goading a jock to beat up the school bully who the jock hates anyway.
For your second point, he explicitly said that he will not have Aly marry or produce an heir with the current incapacitated Emperor. His plan is to have Aly marry and produce a child with her own choice of husband, and then see if he can arrange for one of Aly's descendants to marry one of the current Emperor's descendants. Considering that plan, he might even decide to go seek out one of the Emperor's bastard children instead of holding onto the current piece-of-trash Emperor and hope one of the bastard children living as children of prostitutes might be of better and more acceptable character for Aly's descendants.
@Jemini I really don't want to go through the pointless effort of finding yet more references for this.
Vocana and Forron were certainly tense but Klaman was worried that Forron intended to attack the Luna empire. He incited the attack the way he did to draw Forron's attention to Vocana, so that he didn't have them threatening his borders. Since Vocana wasn't involved in the tension between Forron and the Empire they are indeed an unrelated third party to the the conflict with the Empire. Additionally, while Vocana were certainly preparing for war, it was purely defensive and the implication was that neither side wanted to be the one to attack:
They want us to instigate the war so they can claim they are being attacked, while simultaneously making a rift between House Kineto and House Vanu."
You claim Vocana was manipulated but that's not quite right either... Forron appeared to be at least aware of the child they held hostage, and presumably they were aware that the ransom was rejected even if they didn't send it... regardless of the details, Forron should have been aware that they were either being framed or incited, by going along with it they were manipulated. You can't make the assumption that Vocana would have attacked, we don't have information to support that. What we do have is troops from Vocana injured or killed because Klaman didn't want to deal with a war on his side. That's a bit more than just one person getting beaten up.
To the second part... I didn't say anything about who he wanted to get her to have kids with, it's that his plan involves making her have kids at all. The first two quotes I gave you was very much having a child with someone in the royal bloodline. While the details of who is getting paired up changes, he's consistently viewing the female side as just an acceptable woman to have babies. You claim was:
Anyway, he never considered kidnapping Aly and making her a broodmare. He wanted her for her talents and abilities from the beginning, which means he was always intending to get her consent.
and that is clearly not true.
@kaithar Ok, it looks like you were looking through the chapter for the sake of finding information to support your point, but you didn't actually READ the chapter. Read it again with an open mind to see what's actually there.
Klaman was concerned Forron MIGHT attack the Luna empire. However, Vocana was also concerned Forron was going to attack them as well. All there was is that Forron was being a belligerant force. Meanwhile, Vocana was the greatest threat to Forron due to them building up with Laviathan materials. The rest is just a matter of knowing how politics and military strategy works, but so long as Forron's king wasn't an idiot, the chances of Forron going to war wat Vocana first was 100%. So, what Klaman did here was basically idiot-proofing the result. (AKA, he assumed Forron's king might actually HAVE been an idiot, and wanted to assure that even if that was the case then it would still be Vocana he went to war with.)
2nd. Forron was not the ones actually holding the child. He was held on Forron land by Klaman's agents.
As such, Forron was NOT manipulated, Vocana was. It was a false flag operation on Forron to make Vocana declare war.
@Jemini
Chapter 148:
With the Forren Kingdom rallying their army, it's only a matter of time before they attack while the Empire is in its weakened state.
Ok, problem 1... As I just said, it doesn't matter that Forron looked could have attacked either, Vocana and the empire were not allies and thus third parties to the state of relations between Forron and the other. The enemy of your enemy is not your friend, relationships don't work like that.
Problem 2... yes, I get it, he reduced his own casualties by redirecting the attack, that's acceptable behaviour for a shady ruler. I've said so multiple times. It's still a scummy thing to force the probably war to happen and it's still a problem for a member of the Hero Party.
Problem 3... The child was in a Forron fort, where Forron troops were stationed, so it's nominally a Forron facility unless Klaman built the thing and fully staffed it with agents. It's not a hut hidden in a mountain forest, it's a fort.
Once Klaman has cooked up with new plan at the end of 148 it certainly sounds like it's entirely like it's a safe house but that doesn't make sense with what actually happens. Is Forren so incompetent that they didn't notice that fort near their borders? Doesn't really matter. Either they were blissfully unaware that anything happened, and thus tricked into acting without full knowledge, or they were at least partially aware something was wrong and went along with it anyway, and thus tricked into following an enemy's script. They have been manipulated into attacking the wrong enemy.
Problem 4... Vocana wasn't tricked or manipulated because they were aware that it was a setup. Chapter 149 is mostly Aly and Orlan correctly ripping the plot apart and even pinning it on Klaman. I'd say they handled it fairly quietly and it was like a year later in 167/168 that Forron finally attacked Vocana to start the war.
@kaithar I think at this point we're just talking past each other and just being pedantic about little details.
1. Yes, I agree he's shady. Shady is not what we're talking about. What we're talking about here is a redemption arc, which if you want to argue Klaman doesn't deserve a redemption arc then you need to argue his actions are irredemable. Just being shady and serving the best interest of your nation does not equal irredimable.
2. The business about the child in the Forron fort was a bit unclear from the perspective we got, which I imagine reflects the perspective Alysara got. It's a fog of war effect, and that level of confusion was probably intentional by Klaman. So, I guess it's more or less pointless to discuss at this point.
3. Just because Vocana's leadership caught onto the plot doesn't mean they weren't manipulated. What Klaman delivered was a forcing move, one which forced them to make an action that results in a declaration of war whether they were aware of what was happening or not.
4. No, they actually DID declare war immediately after rescuing the boy. The reason it took so long before the first actual combat clash is because that's how long it took to outfit soldiers and get them to the border. This isn't modern day where you can fly a jet and drop bombs immediately after declaring war, it takes time in the settings we're talking about here.
@Jemini
1. It's fine for him to continue being shady IF he doesn't join the Hero Party. On the other hand, from a purely literary stance he needs at least partial rehabilitation IF he does end up as Aly's ally. He can't go from shady and antagonistic to trustworthy and morally aligned without some form of redemption, Aly is too much of a light aligned character to feel clean working with someone that treats people as disposable pawns.
2. While it was certainly unclear as to how Klaman orchestrated it and how much Forren knew, Aly and Orlan had pretty much identified that the whole thing stunk of being a setup and that they were being spied on by Klaman... that's the most important parts from their perspective, the knowledge that they were walking into a setup.
3&4. Where did they declare war? Chapter please, since I've yet to find it despite looking for it multiple times.
C149/150 doesn't have it.
C151 starts with a 6 month timeskip and is strongly pre-declaration, describing preparations for an attack but not yet being at war.
C155 isn't explicit as to whether they've actually declared, it implies they're still acting defensively but considering pre-emptive action.
C160 mentions frontlines which would normally indicate war but with the strength of the expectation in 155 it can still be preparatory action, it depends on whether they enacted the plan they discussed.
C167/168 is described as a strictly defensive engagement where they're letting Forron walk into an unwinnable battle.
They are strongly consistent throughout on wanting to force Forron to make the first move in each interaction which should mean that the only way Vocana would declare war is if Forron had all but done so already. Unless it's in a side chapter I've not read, I think I've (yet again) gone over every mention between 149 and 168 without finding anything that concretely supports Vocana declaring, nor much to support there being more than a couple of months between declaration and first attack. It's not like I'm not trying to find references to counter my interpretation, I'm just not finding them.
@kaithar
1. Again. This entire discussion is about whether Klaman is worthy of A REDEMPTION ARC. Nobody ever said Klaman did nothing wrong, and nobody is even saying Klaman has already been redeemed. Why are you acting like someone did?
3&4. It's in 149, and it's really more or less in Alysara's mind, but it essentially did happen that Vocana declared war on Forron of their own volition and would have anyway even without Klaman's plot.
That still leaves the question of why he would kidnap Borala's son. To frame the Forren Kingdom? Why? Vocana is already preparing for war. To weaken the countries? They are going to war anyway, right?
@Jemini
You:
It's not an interesting redemption if the former bad-guy was never really bad to begin with, and same goes to if they were too bad to forgive. Klaman has a persona such that he was genuinely trying to do good, but was just VERY far off on his implementation due to being a bit inept.
Luis:
I don't remember him doing something that he'll need redemption after. I mean as assassin he sure did his things, but those things (even kidnapping those kid" is not above what average ruler classes of that island do.
I don't know what you're even trying to argue at this point... Worthy in what way? You've argued that his behaviour isn't unacceptable, that he isn't irredeemable, that he's not really a bad guy, that he has done wrong... I don't think you'd question his value to Aly's team...
3&4. That quote isn't implying what you say. Preparing for war doesn't mean declaring war or acting aggressively. Vocana has been aware for sometime that Forren was going to attack someone, they've been preparing on the basis of the worst case where they'd be the target. They're reasonably certain they'll get attacked, but that doesn't mean they're declaring war first. It's also contradicted by C151:
Governor Borala's son was successfully rescued; however that has sparked tensions with the Forren Kingdom... well, more than there already is.
You don't have issue with the enemy trying to bait you into attacking first if you were already planning to attack first. Vocana has noted and been displeased about the attempt to provoke them into attacking first.
@kaithar Indeed, in a world of politics, what I said was spot on. The only thing Klaman did wrong was being bad at his job. He made moves to instigate a war that would have happened anyway without him doing anything, and he accelerated the collapse of his already collapsing empire.
If he researched better, he would have never started the war. If circumstances were different, then what he did could be seen as genuinely good for his own country. In terms of what he did do in his own country, he killed criminal overlords and corrupt politicians who were facilitating those criminals. The types of people who were causing mass suffering, and the types of people who actually get killed by the heroes in many stories. He just got hit by the realities that those exact same stories tend to ignore.
His ineptitude is severe enough to be considered sinful, and he has caused a lot of harm. So, he really does need to go through a redemption for that. But he's really not as bad as you're making him out to be. (Again, from a political standpoint. In politics, there are many circumstances where doing something that looks objectively evil is the best way to do good once the bigger picture is considered.)
@Jemini I have no real complaint about how he dealt with the criminals or even his actions during battles. His ineptitude isn't the result of malice or such, it's inexperience. It's not even like the former emperor intentionally made the previous state for beneficial reasons.
My problem with him is his policies toward neutral parties and the ideological incompatibility between him and Aly. If he and Aly don't need to be allied then he's fine as he is.
bit*h what redemption.
He doesn't need a redemption arc. He isn't a bad person. He does what he thinks he must but he is also aware of his own problems which is that he is not a politician. He's an assassin and spy and it's all he knows. And he knows that. He never tried to take the power for himself, he always intended to give it to someone worthy of it. He just ended up fixating on Alysara too hard and made mistakes.
Looking at real world history, the ability to give up power to those who deserve it for the greater good, even if you have the power to retain it for yourself, is the sign of a great person.
His fixation on maintaining the empire at all costs was misguided but he is not above admitting when he is wrong and learning from his mistakes.
Klaman is a great person, much greater than many can lay claim to both in our world and in theirs.
@Kaithar just thought id hop in and say that to my (mostly) unbiased view a main arguing point of @jemini that was never addressed properly Anyway, he never considered kidnapping Aly and making her a broodmare. He wanted her for her talents and abilities from the beginning, which means he was always intending to get her consent.
@Big-bomb per the quotes above, he discarded the idea of kidnapping her because it seemed like a failure (in a way that implies he would have otherwise) and primarily needed "someone to continue the bloodline" (Aly's abilities were a secondary benefit, her hair colour was his main hook)